Cancerous Prostate

Question:

ok – now – anyone got any suggestions on where or what to hook the electrodes to?? Scientists from Old Dominion University and Eastern Virginia Medical School say they’ve killed melanomas in mice using high-powered jolts of electricity.   Using extremely short, high-voltage doses of electricity, the researchers told the Virginian-Pilot they’ve never had a tumor that did not respond to the treatment. Richard Nuccitelli, associate professor of electrical and computer engineering at Old Dominion, said the method might eventually turn into an effective cancer treatment. The electric bursts often disrupted the blood flow to the tumor cells and shrunk their nuclei by 50 percent, Nuccitelli said. The tumors died after two or three weeks of treatments, each session involving hundreds of electrical pulses, each less than one-one millionth of a second and carrying 4,000 volts. Nuccitelli told the Virginian-Pilot he and his colleagues believe the process works by severely damaging DNA in the cells. The treatment produced no scarring and did not harm adjacent cells. All of the research mice survived, with no ill effects. The scientists said additional research will be needed before they can experiment on people. The research is to appear online Wednesday in the journal Biochemical and Biophysical Research knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional     "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc

Response:

ok – now – anyone got any suggestions on where or what to hook the electrodes to?? The tumors died after two or three weeks of treatments

Of course, the MICE died the second day … I.P.

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Scientists from Old Dominion University and Eastern Virginia Medical School say they’ve killed melanomas in mice using high-powered jolts of electricity. [snip] The tumors died after two or three weeks of treatments, each session involving hundreds of electrical pulses, each less than one-one millionth of a second and carrying 4,000 volts.

Walking around for three weeks with wires running up willie, and dragging around a 4kV generator or a Tesla coil, could be even more inconvenient than a few days with a catheter. And try explaining it to an airport screener! Alex

Response:

Scientists from Old Dominion University and Eastern Virginia Medical School say they’ve killed melanomas in mice using high-powered jolts of electricity. [snip] The tumors died after two or three weeks of treatments, each session involving hundreds of electrical pulses, each less than one-one millionth of a second and carrying 4,000 volts. Walking around for three weeks with wires running up willie, and dragging around a 4kV generator or a Tesla coil, could be even more inconvenient than a few days with a catheter. And try explaining it to an airport screener!

I think I’d be willing to stay home for this. The tough part is probably hooking the wires up to each individual tumor cell. Wait!  I’ve got an idea!  They can cut out the tumor and then hook up the wires.  Then they can’t miss.     Alan

Response:

Scientists from Old Dominion University and Eastern Virginia Medical School say they’ve killed melanomas in mice using high-powered jolts of electricity. [snip] The tumors died after two or three weeks of treatments, each session involving hundreds of electrical pulses, each less than one-one millionth of a second and carrying 4,000 volts. Walking around for three weeks with wires running up willie, and dragging around a 4kV generator or a Tesla coil, could be even more inconvenient than a few days with a catheter. And try explaining it to an airport screener! I think I’d be willing to stay home for this. The tough part is probably hooking the wires up to each individual tumor cell. Wait! I’ve got an idea! They can cut out the tumor and then hook up the wires. Then they can’t miss.

Question:

Sixth grade science teacher Mr. Sampson asks his class; "Who can tell me which organ of the human body expands to 10 times its usual size when stimulated?" Nobody raises a hand, so he calls on the first student to look his way. "Mary, can you tell me?" Mary stands up, blushing furiously. "Sir, how dare you ask me such a question?" she says. "I’m going to complain to my parents, who will complain to the principal, who will have you fired!" Mr. Sampson is shocked by Mary’s reaction, but undaunted, he asks the class the question again. This time Sam raises his hand. "Yes, Sam," says Mr. Sampson. "Sir, the correct answer is the iris of the human eye." "Very good, Sam. Thank you." Mr. Sampson then turns to Mary and says, "Mary, I have 3 things to say to you. First, it’s clear that you have not done your homework. Second, you have a dirty mind. And third, one day you are going to be sadly disappointed." knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional     "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc

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LMAO! Good one!

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I knew it with a different final: Mary, congratulation to your fianc

Question:

Semen-based Test For Prostate Cancer To Be Developed By Proteome Systems Ltd And US-based Egenix Inc March 10, 2006. Proteome Systems Ltd (ASX: PXL) today announced the signing of an agreement with the New York-based biotechnology company, Egenix Inc to co-develop a semen-based diagnostic kit for prostate cancer based on the known proprietary Human Carcinoma Antigen (HCA). The new non-invasive test, once developed, would offer significant advantages over the current test, and would reduce unnecessary invasive examinations as well as needle biopsies. The current blood test for prostate cancer measures levels of prostate-specific antigen (PSA). The drawback with the PSA test is that it has a high false positive rate (estimated at up to 75%), meaning it picks up many benign conditions of raised PSA levels in the blood – such as enlargement of the prostate or a prostate infection. This means that many men who have false positive tests for prostate cancer undergo unnecessary biopsies. Research indicates that the HCA based test being developed by PXL and Egenix would be a more accurate test. Initial data testing HCA in semen as a marker of prostate cancer was presented at an American Urology Association meeting. In a cohort of 84 patients (9 confirmed cancers and 75 non-cancers), the sensitivity of the semen test was 100% (no cancers missed) and the false positive rate was only 17%. PXL and Egenix will initially work together to optimise the detection of HCA in semen of prostate cancer patients. This initial project will be fully funded by Egenix. The two companies will then share the rights for further development and commercialisation of the test. The parties envisage that this test would have significant implications for the prostate cancer diagnostic market. Estimates by Egenix indicate a potential market size for the HCA test of up to USD $1.5 billion in the US market. HCA in the blood can signal the presence of cancer, but it does not specify where the cancer exists as HCA is produced by other tumors such as breast, lung and colon cancers. Because the prostate’s function is to secrete fluid into semen, HCA is found in much larger concentrations in semen produced by cancerous prostates and is therefore expected to be a highly specific marker for prostate cancer. Further programmes utilising HCA for detection of other cancers are envisaged upon the completion of the initial prostate cancer test. Stephen Porges, CEO of Proteome Systems said "HCA is a very big protein covered with sugars and few companies have the ability to work with such complex molecules. We have acknowledged world-class expertise in analysing this type of glycoprotein and in turning protein antigens into diagnostic tests. Combining this expertise with the research and clinical knowledge that Egenix brings gives us an exciting opportunity to produce an improved and potentially revolutionary diagnostic test for prostate cancer. We also believe there is further potential for this HCA molecule once defined, as a drug target for treatment of prostate cancer" Dr. Jedd Levine, President of Egenix Inc. said "We initially wondered if there would be social or cultural objections to a test that requires the patient to provide an ejaculate specimen. But it’s common to look in organ secretions for signs of cancer in that organ and

Question:

izzy is at it again… steve k., now’s your chance to become that millionaire…….  and for only 5.99 too……. ) ~ curtis knowledge is power – growing old is mandatory – growing wise is optional     "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so." http://community.webtv.net/PALMER_ENT/doc

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ISreal Usuma FAGbeMe as a boy http://www.koott2.piwko.pl/koott/images/humor-avoncalling.jpg

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Want to learn more? Find for more information about prostate at our partner site CheckTheProstate.com

Question:

On March 10, Steve Kramer replied to the Drs. Bornfeld: (snip) I cannot answer the technicalities of your question, but my concern would be more for the different set or onset of side effects.  If he is asymptomatic and suffers no side effects, he might realize too late that hassles with reimbursement are slight comparatively.

Or he could try a 28-day injection of the drug of choice and see what happens without committing to a long-term tx. Regards, Steve J

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My father (83 years old) is being treated for advanced metastatic prostate cancer. He is receiving Casodex (bicalutamide) by mouth once daily, Zometa (zoledronic acid) IV every 6 weeks, and has an Vantas (histrelin) extended release intradermal implant. At ten months into therapy, he has responded well– he is independent, asymptomatic, has no side effects from the medication, and has a PSA level of 0.58 ng/ml. My father’s urologist has informed me that he is unwilling to put up with the reimbursement delays and bureaucratic red tape involved with procuring a replacement Vantas implant at the end of the current implant’s 1-year usable lifespan. He intends to substitute another LHRF-agonist such as Lupron, since it is the "preferred" drug for the Medicare and other drug insurance plans. My instinct is to stay with the Vantas despite the uncertainties of getting reimbursed for this costly medication, since my father responded so well. However, the urologist assures me that the alternative medications are therapeutically equivalent, and a substitution will not jeopardize my father’s health. My questions: 1. Are the alternative LHRH-agonists (leuprolide, goserelin), as effective in achieving chemical castration? 2. Other than the inconvenience of more frequent administration, are the side effects the same? 3. Will switching to another drug risk a flare of tumor symptoms, as is expected at the beginning of LHRF- agonist therapy? If this is possible, will the bicalutamide mitigate this effect? Thanks in advance… Mark

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On March 9, Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS inquired, in pertinent part: (snip) 1. Are the alternative LHRH-agonists (leuprolide, goserelin), as effective in achieving chemical castration?

I am not qualified to give a technical answer. However, Vantas is an LHRH agonist, just as the other such products. Judging from what I’ve read, its primary selling point appears to be the formulation that permits doses to be administered at yearly intervals. My anecdotal experience with Zoladex, Lupron and Trelstar is that the primary difference I’ve noted is in the hot flush side effect: more with Trelstar, less with Zoladex and minimal with Lupron. Information can be found at: www.drugs.com/vantas.html 2. Other than the inconvenience of more frequent administration, are the  side effects the same?

See above. 3. Will switching to another drug risk a flare of tumor symptoms, as is expected at the beginning of LHRF- agonist therapy? If this is possible, will the bicalutamide mitigate this effect?

That’s a question that only a properly-trained medic should answer. Again anecdotally, once I treated with Casodex (bicalutamide) when starting on Zoladex, I never had to do so again when changing to another LHRH agonist. Regards, Steve J (My mail program is acting up. Hope this comes out legible.)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My father (83 years old) is being treated for advanced metastatic prostate cancer. He is receiving Casodex (bicalutamide) by mouth once daily, Zometa (zoledronic acid) IV every 6 weeks, and has an Vantas (histrelin) extended release intradermal implant. At ten months into therapy, he has responded well– he is independent, asymptomatic, has no side effects from the medication, and has a PSA level of 0.58 ng/ml. My father’s urologist has informed me that he is unwilling to put up with the reimbursement delays and bureaucratic red tape involved with procuring a replacement Vantas implant at the end of the current implant’s 1-year usable lifespan. He intends to substitute another LHRF-agonist such as Lupron, since it is the "preferred" drug for the Medicare and other drug insurance plans. My instinct is to stay with the Vantas despite the uncertainties of getting reimbursed for this costly medication, since my father responded so well. However, the urologist assures me that the alternative medications are therapeutically equivalent, and a substitution will not jeopardize my father’s health. My questions: 1. Are the alternative LHRH-agonists (leuprolide, goserelin), as effective in achieving chemical castration? 2. Other than the inconvenience of more frequent administration, are the side effects the same? 3. Will switching to another drug risk a flare of tumor symptoms, as is expected at the beginning of LHRF- agonist therapy? If this is possible, will the bicalutamide mitigate this effect? Thanks in advance… Mark

I’m not an expert.  Your doctor knows (or should know) a lot more about this than I do.  But having said that, I’ll go on and venture a non-expert opinion. It’s my understanding that all of the LHRH agonists are equally effective and achieve the same result.  One reason for this is that the actual effect (reduction in testosterone production) is not a direct effect of the drug, but a very indirect effect.  The drug affects the production of LHRH, which affects the production of LH, which affects the production of testosterone.  So any drug that drives LHRH to the threshold level should have the same effect.  In other words, I expect your doctor is right. There’s an article about these drugs in Wikipedia at:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GnRH_agonist If I read it correctly, the differences between all the drugs are very minor and primarily affect the rate of degradation of the drugs in the body. About the flare, I don’t know the answer.  However I would imagine that, if the drug is given before the effects of the old drug have worn off, it would be like continuing the old drug, not starting something new.  The doctor may have more info about that. As to side effects, I see that Steve thought he detected differences between the different drugs in intensity of hot flashes.  I’m wondering if perhaps that had more to do with other factors than the drug itself (time of year – is it cold in the house, how long he had been on the drug since beginning HT, or possibly others).  In theory, if the side effects are primarily due to the lack of testosterone rather than direct effects of the drugs, then the primary side effects will be the same for all of the drugs. I recommend that you ask the doctor to get a testosterone reading from your father (there may even be more than one kind of testosterone reading) _before and after_ the old drug wears off.  If the testosterone readings are the same under the new drug as under the old, then you have good evidence that they both work equally well.  If the testosterone reading goes up, then you know the new drug isn’t doing as good a job. <OffTopicRant Finally, I’m sympathetic to the doctor’s problem of getting paid. "managed care" has often come to mean, "find every conceivable way of denying payment for anything you can get away with denying, or anything that the doctor is just too tired of fighting you for." My wife (a psychotherapist) is paid by health insurance companies and she has seen unbelievable amounts of bald-faced lying, cheating, and stealing by the managed care companies in attempts to deny her legitimate claims. </OffTopicRant     Alan

Response:

My father (83 years old) is being treated for advanced metastatic prostate cancer. He is receiving Casodex (bicalutamide) by mouth once daily, Zometa (zoledronic acid) IV every 6 weeks, and has an Vantas (histrelin) extended release intradermal implant. At ten months into therapy, he has responded well– he is independent, asymptomatic, has no side effects from the medication, and has a PSA level of 0.58 ng/ml. My father’s urologist has informed me that he is unwilling to put up with the reimbursement delays and bureaucratic red tape involved with procuring a replacement Vantas implant at the end of the current implant’s 1-year usable lifespan.

I cannot answer the technicalities of your question, but my concern would be more for the different set or onset of side effects.  If he is asymptomatic and suffers no side effects, he might realize too late that hassles with reimbursement are slight comparatively. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

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Question:

I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method? almost did, but was turned down at the last minute. He doesn’t associate with us anymore, but might entertain an inquiry.

thanks for the ref. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

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I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method?   Give it a big MISS! Just think about the degree of Accuracy that can be achieved, by Mapping the HIFU Convergence Points from one MOVING organ to another.

Isn’t the problem of mapping precision inherent also with RT? That’s why the Mexicans offer a Complementary TURP with each procedure, plus they acknowledge the HIFU may need to be repeated.

Scardino’s short section on HIFU suggests that the TURP is a wise accompaniment because of the problem of sloughing through the dead tissue which would otherwise cause urinary retention.  HIFU’s proponents seem to represent repeatability as a ‘benefit’ as/when/if it’s deemed wise…. but I fully appreciate your negativity about it. If you’re a Go-Lightly Addict, knock yourself out LOL. BTW: I had HDRB in July 2004, and was extremely impressed by the 3D Mapping and individual Session Adjustment of the Catheters. The Dosage was heavy, but then, there was a reason for this (some G8s), and I’ll need another TURP in a few mths time, as I also have BPH (72cc). The Outcome is still pending until the Hormones, (Lucrin = Lupron)entirely leave my body in, say, 6 mths time.

all the best for your treatment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method? Gelet and Uchida are two of the HIFU pioneers and 5-year results from their studies are emerging.  Even though they use very favorable methods to measure treatment success, their success rates are far below what can be obtained at similar post-treatment intervals with more traditional forms of RT and surgery.  Making matters worse, their poor recurrence rates appear to be accompanied by high rates of ED and a high percentage of their treated men require a TURP.  On the other hand, the method is repeatable and easily tolerated.  Those who want to debulk their primary tumor load, treat recurrence or have various comorbitities that preclude more traditional treatments may find HIFU of value…Ron

many thanks – and for the refs below. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Hinyokika Kiyo. 2005 Oct;51(10):651-8; Transrectal high-intensity focused ultrasound in the treatment of localized prostate cancer: a multicenter study; Uchida T, Baba S, Irie A, Soh S, Masumori N, Tsukamoto T, Nakatsu H, Fujimoto H, Kakizoe T, Ueda T, Ichikawa T, Ohta N, Kitamura T, Sumitomo M, Hayakawa M, Aoyagi T, Tachibana M, Ikeda R, Suzuki K, Tsuru N, Suzuki K, Ozono S, Fujimoto K, Hirao Y, Monden K, Nasu Y, Kumon H, Nishi K, Ueda S, Koga H, Naitoh S. Nippon Rinsho. 2005 Feb;63(2):345-9; High-intensity focused ultrasound for localized prostate cancer; Uchida T. Urology. 2004 Feb;63(2):297-300; High-intensity focused ultrasound for the treatment of localized prostate cancer: 5-year experience; Blana A, Walter B, Rogenhofer S, Wieland WF. American Urological Association Annual Meeting, May 8-13, 2004, San Francisco, California, USA; Program#/Poster#: 830; Presentation Title: PROSTATE CANCER CONTROL WITH TRANSRECTAL HIFU IN 242 CONSECUTIVE PATIENTS: 5-YEAR RESULTS; Albert Gelet, Jean Yves Chapelon, Laura Poissonnier, Raymonde Bouvier, Olivier Rouviere, Ibrahim Bah-Clozel, Denis Lyonnet, Jean Michel Dubernard. Edouard Herriot Hospital, Lyon, France, INSERM Unit 556, Lyon, France, Edouard Herriot Hospital, Lyon, France

Response:

I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method?

almost did, but was turned down at the last minute. He doesn’t associate with us anymore, but might entertain an inquiry. Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Response:

I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method?  

Give it a big MISS! Just think about the degree of Accuracy that can be achieved, by Mapping the HIFU Convergence Points from one MOVING organ to another. That’s why the Mexicans offer a Complementary TURP with each procedure, plus they acknowledge the HIFU may need to be repeated. If you’re a Go-Lightly Addict, knock yourself out LOL. BTW: I had HDRB in July 2004, and was extremely impressed by the 3D Mapping and individual Session Adjustment of the Catheters. The Dosage was heavy, but then, there was a reason for this (some G8s), and I’ll need another TURP in a few mths time, as I also have BPH (72cc). The Outcome is still pending until the Hormones, (Lucrin = Lupron)entirely leave my body in, say, 6 mths time. — Reader to complete… — Please reply to this ng as my email adress is fake: — Regards — CC

Response:

I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method?  

Response:

I met with a surgeon last week to discuss options for treatment (gl(3+4), PSA 7, t1c, 61 years).  He tells me he’s also treating using HIFU – though it’s too early to have useful data on its efficacy. Any thoughts here on this method?

Gelet and Uchida are two of the HIFU pioneers and 5-year results from their studies are emerging.  Even though they use very favorable methods to measure treatment success, their success rates are far below what can be obtained at similar post-treatment intervals with more traditional forms of RT and surgery.  Making matters worse, their poor recurrence rates appear to be accompanied by high rates of ED and a high percentage of their treated men require a TURP.  On the other hand, the method is repeatable and easily tolerated.  Those who want to debulk their primary tumor load, treat recurrence or have various comorbitities that preclude more traditional treatments may find HIFU of value…Ron Hinyokika Kiyo. 2005 Oct;51(10):651-8; Transrectal high-intensity focused ultrasound in the treatment of localized prostate cancer: a multicenter study; Uchida T, Baba S, Irie A, Soh S, Masumori N, Tsukamoto T, Nakatsu H, Fujimoto H, Kakizoe T, Ueda T, Ichikawa T, Ohta N, Kitamura T, Sumitomo M, Hayakawa M, Aoyagi T, Tachibana M, Ikeda R, Suzuki K, Tsuru N, Suzuki K, Ozono S, Fujimoto K, Hirao Y, Monden K, Nasu Y, Kumon H, Nishi K, Ueda S, Koga H, Naitoh S. Nippon Rinsho. 2005 Feb;63(2):345-9; High-intensity focused ultrasound for localized prostate cancer; Uchida T. Urology. 2004 Feb;63(2):297-300; High-intensity focused ultrasound for the treatment of localized prostate cancer: 5-year experience; Blana A, Walter B, Rogenhofer S, Wieland WF. American Urological Association Annual Meeting, May 8-13, 2004, San Francisco, California, USA; Program#/Poster#: 830; Presentation Title: PROSTATE CANCER CONTROL WITH TRANSRECTAL HIFU IN 242 CONSECUTIVE PATIENTS: 5-YEAR RESULTS; Albert Gelet, Jean Yves Chapelon, Laura Poissonnier, Raymonde Bouvier, Olivier Rouviere, Ibrahim Bah-Clozel, Denis Lyonnet, Jean Michel Dubernard. Edouard Herriot Hospital, Lyon, France, INSERM Unit 556, Lyon, France, Edouard Herriot Hospital, Lyon, France

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Question:

The note below was reported in a recent issue of Nature.  I’m not sure what it means, but it seems indirectly, at least, to question the conventional theory that hormone resistant cells are there from the beginning.

So does that imply that we’re to choose our poison, taking ADT and its SEs to die later of AIPC or going cold turkey to die sooner of ADPC? THERE’S a Hobbs’ choice for us! I.P.

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The note below was reported in a recent issue of Nature.  I’m not sure what it means, but it seems indirectly, at least, to question the conventional theory that hormone resistant cells are there from the beginning.

(snip) I would love to see their peer-reviewed article. Regards, Steve J

Response:

The note below was reported in a recent issue of Nature.  I’m not sure what it means, but it seems indirectly, at least, to question the conventional theory that hormone resistant cells are there from the beginning. (snip) I would love to see their peer-reviewed article.

Absolutely.  It’s so hard to get anything from news articles. They traced the effect to a chemical produced by macrophages – immune cells that infiltrate prostate tumours. The chemical produced, a cytokine, triggers a chain of reactions that ultimately reactivate the blocked androgen receptor …

This is an interesting finding that, if true, offers both more information about what’s going on, and new targets for drug development.  However I wonder what this has to do with LHRH agonist like Lupron or Zoladex. It is my understanding that these drugs don’t block cancer cells from taking up testosterone, they block the testes from producing it.  That sounds like the chemical produced by the immune cells will make anti-androgen drugs like Casodex less effective over time, but not Lupron.     Alan

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The note below was reported in a recent issue of Nature.  I’m not sure what it means, but it seems indirectly, at least, to question the conventional theory that hormone resistant cells are there from the beginning. Cell 124, 615

Question:

Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very   early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

Response:

On March 6, Naaman wrote, in pertinent part: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very  early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them.

Welcome to the club no one wants to join. It does appear, based upon the biopsy (which is not 100% reliable; nothing is) that the case is indeed in its early stage. Further than online research, I recommend: 1. Discussion of the case with a radiation oncologist, as the uro is not likely to be fully up to date regarding radiation treatment (tx). 2. Referral to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html It includes a large amount of reliable and objective information. 3. Read, study, the premier book on prostate cancer (PCa), _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient’s Guide," by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum, MD and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior. It is available via Amazon, UsToo International, and the PCRI, as well as other relevant sources. It too is reliable and objective. Once all the information on the disease and its tx is in hand, an informed judgment can be made as to the best tx for this particular tumor. They are all different, which is why anecdotes about someone’s tx and result, though interesting and of some limited utility, must not be relied upon as a definitive guide to a tx regimen. Best of luck. Please keep us informed. Regards, Steve J "We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must listen to the biology." — Stephen B. Strum, MD

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On March 6, Naaman wrote, in pertinent part: Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very  early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Welcome to the club no one wants to join. It does appear, based upon the biopsy (which is not 100% reliable; nothing is) that the case is indeed in its early stage. Further than online research, I recommend: 1. Discussion of the case with a radiation oncologist, as the uro is not likely to be fully up to date regarding radiation treatment (tx). 2. Referral to the website of the Prostate Cancer Research Institute at: http://prostate-cancer.org/index.html It includes a large amount of reliable and objective information. 3. Read, study, the premier book on prostate cancer (PCa), _A Primer on Prostate Cancer_ subtitled "The Empowered Patient’s Guide," by oncologist and PCa specialist Stephen B. Strum, MD and Donna Pogliano, PCa warrior. It is available via Amazon, UsToo International, and the PCRI, as well as other relevant sources. It too is reliable and objective. Once all the information on the disease and its tx is in hand, an informed judgment can be made as to the best tx for this particular tumor. They are all different, which is why anecdotes about someone’s tx and result, though interesting and of some limited utility, must not be relied upon as a definitive guide to a tx regimen. Best of luck. Please keep us informed. Regards, Steve J "We must tailor the treatment to the nature of the disease. We must listen to the biology." — Stephen B. Strum, MD

Thanks for the info and advice. I do take anecdotal information simply as one person’s experience, although it may be useful at the margin. I gather bottom posting (no pun intended) if the preferred style here. Naaman

Response:

I’ve been embroiled in my share of … flame wars. Then you’ll be glad to note that they are almost non-existent here. Even when we disagree strongly, unsupported ad hominem or sniping is rare and usually short-lived in this group. I’d have to guess that age and its implied maturity is a factor, because that’s almost the only common factor here …

There does indeed seem to be an inverse correlation of age with flaming in newsgroups.  I’ve noticed that flaming seems much heavier in the newsgroups frequented by young people. …  unless having PC in the family IMPROVES behavior. I.P.

Perhaps us folks who have had cancer have discovered, if we didn’t already know it, that life is too short and too precious, to be wasted on flame wars.     Alan

Response:

Several people among us have tried Cryo.  Only one, Dan Dubosky, has been thus far successful (how’s that, Dan?) Very good, Steve .  But I am only 6 months post-op with cryo and looking forward to my next PSA check in about a month.  So I’m not sure that anyone should base their decision on my case.  The jury is still out.

I agree that it’s too early to base a decision, let alone too unique, but as far as your comfort zone is concerned, you have already made it longer than the others without indications of failure.  I like your chances.

Response:

I.P. It’s a book that is written by Bradley Hennenfent. It begins with a misguided RP patient blowing the testicles off of his uro because he (the patient) felt like an android and was in pain all of the time due to the botched RP. Sounds like a bad sequel to an Arnold Schwartzenegger movie. My opinion is that the book sounds more like science fiction than fact. But what do I know, just my opinion. B.A.

Response:

I.P. It’s a book that is written by Bradley Hennenfent. It begins with a misguided RP patient blowing the testicles off of his uro because he (the patient) felt like an android and was in pain all of the time due to the botched RP. Sounds like a bad sequel to an Arnold Schwartzenegger movie. My opinion is that the book sounds more like science fiction than fact.

Sci fi … and maybe paranoia, ignorance, fatalism, arrogance (in advising others to  believe it), probably not having seen anyone die of bone cancer, and the failure to believe that anyone has ever been cured of PC. That single statement is enough for me to ignore anything else the man has written, and Jamie would do well to keep reading, if indeed "any treatment option was worse than the disease" represents Hennenfent’s philosophy. I.P.

Response:

  I researched on line and read many books and conluded the any treatment option was worse than the disease.

What on earth are you reading? Where did you read that dying with bone cancer in one’s 50s over a period of months, maybe even years, is preferable to another 15 years — maybe 30-40 years — of tennis, golf, fishing, robust living, loving, etc.? I.P.

Response:

Your situation is very similar to mine.  I was diagnosed in December with a PSA of 6.2 and a Gleason of 6.  I researched on line and read many books and conluded the any treatment option was worse than the disease.  

Jamie, Have you checked out articles at: http://www.prostateweb.com/pdfs/ASCO_PCF_02_2005.pdf and http://www.prostateweb.com/docs/HDTRT9.doc They clearly show that treatment options exist which result in a quality of life higher than what you had before being diagnosed with prostate cancer.  The downside is that the treatment offers no chance for a cure.   The upside is that the treatment has almost no chance of dying from prostate cancer for men who start it at an early stage (T1-T3). Ed Friedman

Response:

I’ve been embroiled in my share of … flame wars.

Then you’ll be glad to note that they are almost non-existent here. Even when we disagree strongly, unsupported ad hominem or sniping is rare and usually short-lived in this group. I’d have to guess that age and its implied maturity is a factor, because that’s almost the only common factor here unless having PC in the family IMPROVES behavior. I.P.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very   early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

Response:

Your situation is very similar to mine.  I was diagnosed in December with a PSA of 6.2 and a Gleason of 6.  I researched on line and read many books and conluded the any treatment option was worse than the disease.  That said, I have opted for Brachytherapy (i.e. radioactive seeds) and am scheduled for March 16th.  THere is a good book I am presently reading on surviving prostrate cancer without surgery.  If you want the title email me and I will bring it to work so I can give you that information. I wish you the best in what is truly a difficult decision. Jamie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very   early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

Response:

I gather bottom posting (no pun intended) is the preferred style here.

IF it’s preceded by careful elimination of irrelevant pony pucky. Ponies we like; having to scroll through pucky to find the pony may send busy readers on to greener pastures. I.P.

Response:

Several people among us have tried Cryo.  Only one, Dan Dubosky, has been thus far successful (how’s that, Dan?)

Very good, Steve .  But I am only 6 months post-op with cryo and looking forward to my next PSA check in about a month.  So I’m not sure that anyone should base their decision on my case.  The jury is still out. Dan

Response:

… I’ve never been convinced that brachytherapy has any advantages over external radiation, but if only the former is available to you, I don’t see any reason not to choose it. …

As I understand it from my layman’s perspective, external beam radiation (EBRT) or EBRT + brachytherapy, is more effective against intermediate and high risk cancers than brachytherapy alone.  I don’t know why that is but speculate that it is easier for the radiation oncologist to drench every part of the prostate with EBRT than with brachy, and it also treats the area immediately around the prostate. However the statistics for low risk cases (PSA < 10, G <= 6) are just about as good for brachy as for anything else.  It does deliver a very high cumulative dose of radiation directly to the prostate, actually greater than the dose delivered by EBRT. The big advantages have to do with the mode of treatment.  With brachytherapy the clinical treatment takes a few hours as compared to a few hours plus a small amount of time every weekday for 9 weeks. Also, with brachytherapy I believe the radiation delivered to sensitive structures outside the prostate like the rectum and bladder is less. The disadvantage is that it is a surgical procedure.  It’s not major surgery like prostatectomy.  The body is never cut open.  But needles are inserted through the perineum, anaesthesia is used, and there is some soreness, and possibly some bleeding, afterward. I’ve had both brachytherapy and external beam.  The EBRT was certainly easier to do since there was no hospital stay and no anaesthesia.  But the brachytherapy was over quicker and other than some soreness that tapered off after a week, there was no real pain.     Alan

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very  early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

Try the Sloan Kettering website www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/10088.cfm They only give 5 year biochemical failure rates based on pretreatment criteria.  But if you keep in mind that it takes quite a while after biochemical failure for the development of clinical symptoms, that may be enough to get started. In fact, with your statistics, you stand an extremely good chance of being cured for all practical purposes by either surgery or radiation. At your age, it is easier to avoid impotence with radiation that with surgery.  Keep in mind, in any case, that impotence can be treated and need not mean the end of your sex life.  I’ve never been convinced that brachytherapy has any advantages over external radiation, but if only the former is available to you, I don’t see any reason not to choose it. Cryotherapy has not had a good repuation generally, and that seems confirmed by the anecdotal evidence reported here.  The people who’ve used it don’t seem to have had good experiences.

Response:

My father chose brachytherapy at your age…. and six years later he’s doing fine!  Each treatment has it’s pros and cons…. Just research them carefully and read all you can…. and decide what you think is best *for you*… and then never look back! I wish you well! MikeH

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

Response:

On March 6, Naaman responded to me: In line posting is, IMO, courteous and does not waste one’s time. But the poster should snip matter that is not relevant to what (s)he has to say. That, too, is courteous. Believe it or not, there are etiquette guidelines. See, for example, http://www.river.com/users/share/etiquette/ Some folks deliberately refuse to follow the guidelines for what I suppose they think are good reasons.

Being one of those, I sincerely apologize.  I will, as long as I remember to do so, respond in-line forever more.

Response:

This is drifting OT, so I’ll keep it short. I’ve be hanging around message boards since the days of FidoNet, so I’ve been embroiled in my share of etiquette discussions–and flame wars. I just try to go along with the culture of the newsgroup now.

I was a poster on FidoNet and frequent flier on OneNet and other BBSs.  I think you will find here a unique situation.  Whereas we will occasionally have a heated discussion, usually of OT subjects, flamers are rare and often find haven elsewhere.

Response:

[ Snip ] cryo results.  Surgery advocates claim superiority.  Radiation advocates claim results similar to surgery.  I’m not sure if I’ve seen cryo advocates here or in my research.

Steve, I met with Dr. Duke Bahn a couple of weeks ago, and he has a journal article about to be published on the effectiveness of cryo, based on a significant number of patients. He’s an advocate of cryo for appropriate cases, and even of freezing only one lobe of the gland for very localized cancers. (Cryo almost inevitably clobbers the nerves controlling erection, since they are adjacent to the prostate gland and wind up getting frozen as well. By freezing only one lobe, the nerves on the other side are spared. Of course, so is any prostate cancer that might be hidden away there.) Alex

Response:

Well it goes to prove that both of your friends have done very well with their decided treatments. I think it can be said that both treatments, surgery and radiation, have improved over the last 10 years. Steve is correct in pointing you in the direction of reading books written by experts/doctors before committing to an actual treatment. The advice and information that can be obtained here can be very valuable to you as well, but it is good to educate yourself and then join discussions here. You will find the personal experiences by the members and advice that can be offered by some very smart people who share one thing in common, very enlightening. My personal advice is to find a doctor who specializes in the treatment of this particular disease. This seems like an obvious thing to do but I’m constantly surprised that some people do not interview more than one doctor. After quizzing my first uro, I came to the conclusion although he was a good doctor, he lacked the surgical experience and expertise in PCa for me to feel confident about him actually operating on ME. B.A.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise, except for a bad shoulder that is going to have to be scoped before I can get back on the golf course. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy. Have talked with two friends who 1. had RP and 2. had seed implants. Both consider their treatments a success after 10 or more years. Next step is another PSA in another month, which may be decision time, depending on the outcome. I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them. Anyway, advice, suggestions, comments, etc. welcomed. Naaman Nickell

I agree with the other posters that you should do some research on all this using the books and websites mentioned. Another alternative that your urologist didn’t mention was "watchful waiting".  It may be that you have a very indolent cancer that isn’t growing fast enough to ever be a danger to you.  So one possible course of action is to insure that your lifestyle and nutrition are as positive as possible – for example, lycopene, vitamin D, selenium, ibuprofen, and maybe vitamin E have all been shown to have _possible_ (not fully proven) benefit.  And conversely, reduce fat in your diet, etc. With watchful waiting you need to emphasize the "watchful" part, with regular PSA tests, perhaps every 3 months or so, to be sure that the cancer isn’t going anywhere. If I were you in your situation, and I decided on treatment, I think I’d go for brachytherapy – implanted seed radiation.  As compared to surgery or external beam radiation, it confines the damage to a relatively small area and hence has relatively fewer side effects (though there are no guarantees!), it can be done very quickly, typically with a hospital procedure and an overnight stay, and unless something goes wrong (again no guarantees), you’ll be on your feet again and back to normal life in a few days – though you will probably experience urinary difficulties for some months after the procedure. Brachytherapy is not the best treatment for serious cases, but is said to be highly effective in early, low grade cases like yours. Also, if I decided on treatment, I’d want a good doctor – one who has treated a lot of prostate cancer (not, for example a urologist that specializes in female incontinence, or a radiation oncologist that specializes in breast cancer), and one who listens, answers questions, takes his time, and sounds concerned and intelligent. However, my opinion is worth what you’re paying for it.  See a radiation oncologist for professional advice on brachytherapy, and discuss watchful waiting with him and your urologist. Best of luck.     Alan

Response:

Welcome, Naaman! Two months ago, my urologist called to tell  me that my prostate biopsy had revealed a tiny bit of cancer and  that he wanted to talk face to face with me and my wife.

I can still remember that call, where I was sitting, and what I was looking out at from my office. Malignancy indicated in about 10 percent of one of 12 cores taken. "Very early stage" according to urologist. Gleason 6,t1c, PSA 4.5. Oh, yes, I’m 72 and good health otherwise,

I would not categorize it as "very" early, but it is certainly early enough to opt for surgery.  There are two major criteria for choosing surgery or radiation. One is age.  And, frankly, at 72, you would often be outside the window. But, if you are in good health and able to handle major abdominal surgery, then you have the option. Two is Gleason.  At G6, you are in great shape for surgery.  Your T1c would also seem to support the G6, but then DREs are maybe 33% to 50% accurate in determining stage and biopsies can be off about 20% of the time. I’d say you have two very viable options. I was told I am a good candidate for radical prostatectomy, radiation or cryotherapy.

Several people among us have tried Cryo.  Only one, Dan Dubosky, has been thus far successful (how’s that, Dan?) I’ve been doing lots of on line research, but there seems to be a paucity of current information on long-term studies relating to success, or failure, of the various treatment methods–or perhaps I’m just missing them.

www.phoenix5.org or cancer books by Walsh, Strumm and Scardino are great resources.  What you will find is that there is a long history on surgery results, a short history on radiation results, and a really short history on cryo results.  Surgery advocates claim superiority.  Radiation advocates claim results similar to surgery.  I’m not sure if I’ve seen cryo advocates here or in my research. — Biopsy 11/01/2000 G7 (3+4), T2c RRP 12/15/2000 G7 (3+4), T3cN0M0 Neg margins PSA  .1  .1  .1  .27  .37  .75 PSA  .34 .22 .15 .21 .32 Lupron 07/03 (1 mo) 8/03 (4 mo), 12/03, 4/04, 09/04, 01/05, 5/05, 10/05, 2/06 PSA  .07 .05 .06 .09 .08 .132 Non Illegitimi Carborundum

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – On March 6, Naaman responded to me: (snip) Thanks for the info and advice. I do take anecdotal information simply as one person’s experience, although it may be useful at the margin. Glad to help. I gather bottom posting (no pun intended) if the preferred style here. Actually, posting in line (aka "bottom posting") is the method  that most closely resembles the way people converse. Top-posting is backwards, sometimes difficult to follow, and is often simply deleted without reading. In line posting is, IMO, courteous and does not waste one’s time. But the poster should snip matter that is not relevant to what (s)he has to say. That, too, is courteous. Believe it or not, there are etiquette guidelines. See, for example, http://www.river.com/users/share/etiquette/ Some folks deliberately refuse to follow the guidelines for what I suppose they think are good reasons. Regards, Steve J

This is drifting OT, so I’ll keep it short. I’ve be hanging around message boards since the days of FidoNet, so I’ve been embroiled in my share of etiquette discussions–and flame wars. I just try to go along with the culture of the newsgroup now. Naaman

Response:

On March 6, Naaman responded to me: (snip) Thanks for the info and advice. I do take anecdotal information simply as one person’s experience, although it may be useful at the margin. Glad to help. I gather bottom posting (no pun intended) if the preferred style here.

Actually, posting in line (aka "bottom posting") is the method  that most closely resembles the way people converse. Top-posting is backwards, sometimes difficult to follow, and is often simply deleted without reading. In line posting is, IMO, courteous and does not waste one’s time. But the poster should snip matter that is not relevant to what (s)he has to say. That, too, is courteous. Believe it or not, there are etiquette guidelines. See, for example, http://www.river.com/users/share/etiquette/ Some folks deliberately refuse to follow the guidelines for what I suppose they think are good reasons. Regards, Steve J

Response:

Question:

I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK"  Looks like the thread began (and ended) last Spring, but suddenly  IP added something this week amd it took off again.

Now that I look more closely, I see that it appeared on my computer Thursday, in full glory as puked below, with this time tag on it: "10:30 AM, January 22, 2007". That’s not a misprint. It’s an internet or ISP or Rod Serling SCREWUP, and it appeared on several forums, but it’s not a misprint. Years ago I got this kind of thing by the dozens every day for many weeks. I.P. Hey,   I read your email, and I would just like to share with you what happened to us.  I don’t want this to sound like an info-merical, but honestly this stuff (Xango) is almost to good to be true.. It has actually been an answer to prayer for us.  My mom has been bed ridden for years from rheumatoid arthritis, and she just had her neck and most of her spine fused, and was having complications, actually she was having mini strokes, and migraines everyday.  And it was beginning to look pretty hopeless. But an old friend called her, and told her about this product that helped them with some pretty serious health problems, so she decided to try, since there weren’t many options left.  Within a week, her headaches were gone, and strokes stopped, and she was able to get out of bed, and move around!! And my dad’s carpal tunnel pain, went away totally.  So we went on it, and my allergies were cleared up, and my acne, also cleaned up.  And my wife had chronic pain in her shoulder that she was taking anti-inflammatory, and muscle relaxants, and ranitidine, because of what all that did to her stomach, and now she is down to a couple of Advil before bed!! Anyways, so you can go and check it out yourself. There are testemonials for so many things from cancer, to ms, to kids who have autism becoming more responsive, i know it seems weird that one thing  could do so much but on the web site it explains it all.   And just so you know, there is a money back guarantee so if it doesn’t work for you, you get your money back. That is how sure they are of there product.   www.mymangosteen.com/roybilec -tells you about product   www.researchmangosteen.org – what it does, testimonials Sincerely,   Jonathan Bilec

Response:

OH…..a further answer for IP.  The date is postdated so that it will stay on the news group servers longer and always be the *first in line* so to speak.  Spammers do that all the time. I don’t date my posts; "The Internet" does that. I guess you’re saying savvy people *can* fake a post date?

Yes…..headers are often forged.  I don’t know how to do it, but I have seen a lot in my years on here. But even if so, why didn’t the other folks see it?

I have noticed that my news server seems to eliminate a lot of the spam posts.  I only see them if you or Curtis (for instance) reply to them. Not bad for a small European freebie.  No binaries either.  So major ISP’s could be filtering the news groups for their customers as well. And how does that explain the fact that this happens with ordinary, legitimate posts sometimes, usually in intense flurries for a few days or weeks at a time . . . server problems, I presume?

Probably.  They do go down, or get jammed up at times.  They also sometimes get *reset* and you download old ones over again.  Doesn’t happen often tho. Night…..Heather

Response:

I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK" Looks like the thread began (and ended) last Spring, but suddenly IP added something this week amd it took off again.

Oh.  Well, in that case, thanks for bringing up that awful memory.

Response:

Steve, do you use your ISP for your news server???

Outlook Express into news.cinci.rr.com

Response:

I like when the "PLONK" happens. It tells me who all the hot-heads are and usually the trolls. You know the ones that just have to say something about everything and can’t use their browser features? LOL

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK" Looks like the thread began (and ended) last Spring, but suddenly IP added something this week amd it took off again. Oh.  Well, in that case, thanks for bringing up that awful memory.

Response:

You got me pegged, lady.  Just an ignorant hothead.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I like when the "PLONK" happens. It tells me who all the hot-heads are and usually the trolls. You know the ones that just have to say something about everything and can’t use their browser features? LOL I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK" Looks like the thread began (and ended) last Spring, but suddenly IP added something this week amd it took off again. Oh.  Well, in that case, thanks for bringing up that awful memory.

Response:

Hi Jon, Already tried to tell people of Mangosteen on these groups and just got poo pooed. Hope you have better luck. To expell something through lack of knowledge is the highest form of ignorance. Regards, Rob Smith

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hey, I read your email, and I would just like to share with you what happened to us.  I don’t want this to sound like an info-merical, but honestly this stuff (Xango) is almost to good to be true.. It has actually been an answer to prayer for us.  My mom has been bed ridden for years from rheumatoid arthritis, and she just had her neck and most of her spine fused, and was having complications, actually she was having mini strokes, and migraines everyday.  And it was beginning to look pretty hopeless. But an old friend called her, and told her about this product that helped them with some pretty serious health problems, so she decided to try, since there weren’t many options left.  Within a week, her headaches were gone, and strokes stopped, and she was able to get out of bed, and move around!! And my dad’s carpal tunnel pain, went away totally.  So we went on it, and my allergies were cleared up, and my acne, also cleaned up.  And my wife had chronic pain in her shoulder that she was taking anti-inflammatory, and muscle relaxants, and ranitidine, because of what all that did to her stomach, and now she is down to a couple of Advil before bed!! Anyways, so you can go and check it out yourself. There are testemonials for so many things from cancer, to ms, to kids who have autism becoming more responsive, i know it seems weird that one thing  could do so much but on the web site it explains it all. And just so you know, there is a money back guarantee so if it doesn’t work for you, you get your money back. That is how sure they are of there product. www.mymangosteen.com/roybilec -tells you about product www.researchmangosteen.org – what it does, testimonials Sincerely, Jonathan Bilec

Response:

Hi Jon, Already tried to tell people of Mangosteen on these groups and just got poo pooed.

Never mind poo poo, whatever the benefits or otherwise of the product, this is commercial advertising.  Advertising is not acceptable on support newsgroups and contravenes most ISP’s conditions of service. including a plain text copy of the post (such as appended here, or using the view-source function of your browser). Tim Jackson alt.support.cancer.breast Path: ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net!nntp-xref-slave.plus.net!ptn-nntp-spool01.plus.n et!nntp-peering.plus.net!ptn-nntp-feeder02.plus.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!fe eder1.hal-mli.net!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local01.n ntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.pipex.net!news.pipex.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Newsgroups: alt.support.cancer.breast,alt.support.cancer.prostate,alt.support.cancer.te sticular,alt.support.cant.urinate.in-public,alt.support.celiac X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Response X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 Lines: 48 NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.13.2 X-Trace: sv3-7HOf4LfoyYm4gwn3gugaPhPLrBakms5zNaoxy0befgqbiNxRU7jWE4Flk2owCv9JjvRxC08 ii6xxJAA!07F9Kl2mlVXqWVGMTmeT1iVrJMDitmq/GgHGbuTK3joY4poqwjcuTN7JIdFkLWT+5z C6fY1XeOW2!J2Y1VwNCuZ84p90IQfN8/eM= X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.32 Xref: ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net alt.support.celiac:5487 alt.support.cancer.testicular:268 alt.support.cancer.prostate:37518 alt.support.cancer.breast:10547 Hi Jon, Already tried to tell people of Mangosteen on these groups and just got poo pooed. Hope you have better luck. To expell something through lack of knowledge is the highest form of ignorance. Regards, Rob Smith

  Hey,   I read your email, and I would just like to share with you what happened   to   us.  I don’t want this to sound like an info-merical, but honestly this   stuff (Xango) is almost to good to be true.. It has actually been an   answer   to prayer for us.  My mom has been bed ridden for years from rheumatoid   arthritis, and she just had her neck and most of her spine fused, and was   having complications, actually she was having mini strokes, and migraines   everyday.  And it was beginning to look pretty hopeless. But an old friend   called her, and told her about this product that helped them with some   pretty serious health problems, so she decided to try, since there weren’t   many options left.  Within a week, her headaches were gone, and strokes   stopped, and she was able to get out of bed, and move around!! And my   dad’s   carpal tunnel pain, went away totally.  So we went on it, and my allergies   were cleared up, and my acne, also cleaned up.  And my wife had chronic   pain   in her shoulder that she was taking anti-inflammatory, and muscle   relaxants,   and ranitidine, because of what all that did to her stomach, and now she   is   down to a couple of Advil before bed!! Anyways, so you can go and check it   out yourself. There are testemonials for so many things from cancer, to   ms, to kids who have autism becoming more responsive, i know it seems   weird that one thing  could do so much but on the web site it explains it   all.   And just so you know, there is a money back guarantee so if   it doesn’t work for you, you get your money back. That is how sure they   are   of there product.   www.mymangosteen.com/roybilec -tells you about product   www.researchmangosteen.org – what it does, testimonials     Sincerely,   Jonathan Bilec    

Response:

OH…..a further answer for IP.  The date is postdated so that it will stay on the news group servers longer and always be the *first in line* so to speak.  Spammers do that all the time.

I don’t date my posts; "The Internet" does that. I guess you’re saying savvy people *can* fake a post date? But even if so, why didn’t the other folks see it? And how does that explain the fact that this happens with ordinary, legitimate posts sometimes, usually in intense flurries for a few days or weeks at a time . . . server problems, I presume? Oh, I wouldn’t worry about marking this threat OT; its topic says it all. I.P.

Response:

I must have a very good news server because I never see a lot of this crapola until one of you answers it……whatever it was. The first I saw was Steve Kramer’s reply, quoting the onager’s post. That only served to DOUBLE the exposure for the idiot. I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK"

Neither did I…….but to answer IP further down, it is our news server that has to be removing it, in my case.  Steve, do you use your ISP for your news server??? Oddly enough, I am using a freebie one from Italy I think.  Motzarella is its name…..damn good little news server!! OH…..a further answer for IP.  The date is postdated so that it will stay on the news group servers longer and always be the *first in line* so to speak.  Spammers do that all the time. Cheers…..Heather (crosspost removed) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK"

Many times it’s I who don’t see this crap until someone else coughs it up. What I want to know is, who’s filtering newsgroup spam, anyway . . .   our ISPs? Why don’t we all see it all? BTW . . . notice it’s crossposted. I’ve deleted several newsgroups from the distribution list. I.P.

Response:

I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK"

 Looks like the thread began (and ended) last Spring, but suddenly  IP added something this week amd it took off again. All 13 messages in topic Groups:   alt.support.cancer.breast, alt.support.cancer.prostate, alt.support.cancer.testicular, alt.support.cant.urinate.in-public, alt.support.celiac Your English is terrible.  I hope you Nigerian is better. Groups:   alt.support.cancer.prostate, alt.support.celiac PLONK

Response:

I must have a very good news server because I never see a lot of this crapola until one of you answers it……whatever it was. The first I saw was Steve Kramer’s reply, quoting the onager’s post. That only served to DOUBLE the exposure for the idiot.

I never saw this one, until IP’s "PLONK"

Response:

I must have a very good news server because I never see a lot of this crapola until one of you answers it……whatever it was.

 The first I saw was Steve Kramer’s reply, quoting the onager’s post.  That only served to DOUBLE the exposure for the idiot.

Response:

PLONK

Response:

PLONK

I must have a very good news server because I never see a lot of this crapola until one of you answers it……whatever it was.  But the subject is fairly screaming SPAM!!  (G)  And just noticed, the author can’t spell.  Ergo, are all spammers illiterate idiots??  (rhetorical question) HF

Response:

I didn’t see either until you responded either.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – PLONK I must have a very good news server because I never see a lot of this crapola until one of you answers it……whatever it was.  But the subject is fairly screaming SPAM!!  (G)  And just noticed, the author can’t spell.  Ergo, are all spammers illiterate idiots?? (rhetorical question) HF

Response:

Your English is terrible.  I hope you Nigerian is better. —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I want start a trend, this is make ppl to think carefully about where they live and how we are screwing it up, and the cures. goto my site and look i am a disabled ex-truck driver, and i have to find a new career, so this it, i want to plant a few trees, My site url http://www.global-airconditioning.com/index.html its on a candian server my name and address is fully available I want help, and thats very hard for me to say. i don’t lie it costs too much, truth hurts but it costs nothing, phishers beware, balderdash is binned

Response:

Your English is terrible.  I hope you Nigerian is better.

And your’s is not much better!

Response:

Your English is terrible.  I hope you Nigerian is better. And your’s is not much better!

My English is just fine.  My typing, however, could use some work.

Response:

Your English is terrible.  I hope you Nigerian is better. And your’s is not much better!

And there’s no apostrophe in "yours". Now take your crossposted crap and stick it where the sun don’t shine. I.P.

Response:

I see that the web hosting service hosting gman’s pages has killed his website.  I guess they thought what he was doing was an abuse of their terms of service.     Alan

Response:

I see that the web hosting service hosting gman’s pages has killed his website.  I guess they thought what he was doing was an abuse of their terms of service.     Alan

What web page is that?

Response:

I see that the web hosting service hosting gman’s pages has killed his website.  I guess they thought what he was doing was an abuse of their terms of service.     Alan What web page is that?

This one…… http://www.global-airconditioning.com/index.html which converts to the following….. http://www.bravenet.com/webhosting/suspended.html As in *duh*….playing games, are we?? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I see that the web hosting service hosting gman’s pages has killed his website.  I guess they thought what he was doing was an abuse of their terms of service.     Alan What web page is that? This one…… http://www.global-airconditioning.com/index.html which converts to the following….. http://www.bravenet.com/webhosting/suspended.html

That’s not gman’s site. You must be thinking of someone else: global-airconditioning.com = [ 65.39.211.124 ]  Registration Service Provided By: BRAVENET.COM   Contact: 250.9543203   Website: bravenet.com   Domain Name: GLOBAL-AIRCONDITIONING.COM   Registrant:       Global air conditioning       54 Barlands House Standfast Road Henbury       Standfast Road       Bristol       NA BS107HR       US       Tel. 0.441173774031       Fax. 0.441173774031   Domain servers in listed order:       ns7.bravehost.com       ns8.bravehost.com   Administrative Contact:       Global air conditioning       54 Barlands House Standfast Road Henbury       Standfast Road       Bristol       NA BS107HR       US       Tel. 0.441173774031       Fax. 0.441173774031   Technical Contact:       Global air conditioning       54 Barlands House Standfast Road Henbury       Standfast Road       Bristol       NA BS107HR       US       Tel. 0.441173774031       Fax. 0.441173774031   Billing Contact:       Global air conditioning       54 Barlands House Standfast Road Henbury       Standfast Road       Bristol       NA BS107HR       US       Tel. 0.441173774031       Fax. 0.441173774031   Status: ACTIVE

Response:

Question:

awesome!

Response:

Just what the doctor ordered.  Made my evening.

Response:

David, Getting laid is great advise.  Before my RRP I was upset enough that I wasn’t thinking much about sex.  Do you and your partner a favor and do it as much as you can.  I am sorry I didn’t.  You Doc seems to be on top of the situation. Roger From Maryland

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – curtis, those are a hoot!!! I needed that.  My CT’’s and bone scans came back clean.  Thurs day they’re gonna take the prostate and colon cancer out. I’ll be beginning the journey that so many of you good men have traveled before me. Oddly, I really haven’t been frightened, just anxious. My uro gave me some valium, viagra, and ambien. Told me to calm down, get laid, and get some sleep. things would be different after thursday. Thanks guys ans God Bless David

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – David, Getting laid is great advise.  Before my RRP I was upset enough that I wasn’t thinking much about sex.  Do you and your partner a favor and do it as much as you can.  I am sorry I didn’t.  You Doc seems to be on top of the situation. Roger From Maryland curtis, those are a hoot!!! I needed that.  My CT’’s and bone scans came back clean.  Thurs day they’re gonna take the prostate and colon cancer out. I’ll be beginning the journey that so many of you good men have traveled before me. Oddly, I really haven’t been frightened, just anxious. My uro gave me some valium, viagra, and ambien. Told me to calm down, get laid, and get some sleep. things would be different after thursday. Thanks guys ans God Bless David

I suggested that to my wife prior to going in for the bypass, her response was " Later, you’re not going to die on top of me." ) Tom

Response:

My uro gave me some valium, viagra, and ambien. Told me to calm down, get laid, and get some sleep. things would be different after thursday.

This is certainly early to discuss it, but impotence is far from guaranteed. I had both nerves cut out and, though it was 2